Crowd Shows Up at Dock St Hearing at Borough Hall

A strong showing by the opposition of Dock Street Dumbo came to the hearing yesterday evening at the Brooklyn Borough Hall. The majority of the speakers were opposed to the tune of approximately 3 to 1, according to those who attended. With hearings such as this one, the crowd tends to favor the opposition, but both sides came with strong arguments. The supporters of the project are hoping that a new public middle school will be built to accommodate the growing families in the area. The arguments against the building came from both residents and land use experts all over and outside of the neighborhood. A representative from Simon & Schuster publishing house read a personal letter from David McCollough (author of The Great Bridge) opposing the project for the sake of the bridge (pdf of letter). One emailer sent us their take on it: “I felt the parade of statements opposing the building were elegant, pointed, and diverse offering hard evidence, well-reasoned argument, and emotionally compelling appeals.”

The general theme was that the bridge was too important to not protect and could not be traded away for a school. Also, the opposition notes that bundling the school issue with the building forced upon people a “false choice” between preserving the bridge and getting a school. Several other school solutions were offered as potentially viable alternatives worthy of exploration including two new offers of providing school space by large area property owners (including the owner of 205 Water).

Regarding the school, this morning’s Brooklyn Paper article about the event quoted Mr. Walentas:

“If you’re an agency charged with building the maximum number of school seats for the least amount of money, you’d be reckless not to pursue a deal with us,” he said.

He also rejected the argument that the middle school was included solely to get approval for the rezoning, which will raise the value of his site and his company’s other properties in DUMBO, a former warehouse and industrial zone that his father, David Walentas, is credited with turning into one of New York’s most desirable neighborhoods for residents and artists.

“Yes, it is true that the rezoning would add value to the site,” he said. “But because of our broader interest in the neighborhood, we’re actually giving it back in the form of a school and affordable housing.

Echoing a comment made by Carlo Trigiani, hopefully through compromise, a common ground can be met and this is the job of Marty Markowitz before his recommendation goes to the City Planning Commission.

176 Comment

  • This was a huge win for those opposed to the project, as they outnumbered the pro-Dock St. crowd by significant margins (at least 3 or 4 to 1).

    The referenced Brooklyn Paper article fails to report the truth, and does not even mention any of the hard scientific data that was presented by the opposition, such as testimony that provided proof that placing schools next to major roadways is damaging to childrens’ developing lungs, and states are moving to mandate against it.

    Hopefully Markowitz will follow through on the voice of the community that overwhelmingly showed up to oppose this project and vote against it.

  • This was a huge win for those opposed to the project, as they outnumbered the pro-Dock St. crowd by significant margins (at least 3 or 4 to 1).

    The referenced Brooklyn Paper article fails to report the truth, and does not even mention any of the hard scientific data that was presented by the opposition, such as testimony that provided proof that placing schools next to major roadways is damaging to childrens’ developing lungs, and states are moving to mandate against it.

    Hopefully Markowitz will follow through on the voice of the community that overwhelmingly showed up to oppose this project and vote against it.

  • So, it’s supposed to be a 200 + ft. building with 310 high-end condos, 65 below-market apartments, and a school.

    How about this instead: a 100 + ft. building with 200 high-end condos, no below-market apartments, and a school. Is there a rule that says high-end condo buildings MUST have below-market apartments in it? If so, getting a variance wouldn’t seem too tough, because they’re building a school there.

    I’m sorry, but I find it hard to believe that the community at large would shed any tears at the prospect of losing below-market housing in that building. Sure, it’d be nice to diversify a little bit, but if we can get our school, AND the condos to make the project economically viable, AND not ruin the bridge, everybody wins. And then build your low-income housing somewhere else, say, at that 205 Water St. lot that the article mentions.

    AND we’re done! Okay, Marty. Make it so…

  • So, it’s supposed to be a 200 + ft. building with 310 high-end condos, 65 below-market apartments, and a school.

    How about this instead: a 100 + ft. building with 200 high-end condos, no below-market apartments, and a school. Is there a rule that says high-end condo buildings MUST have below-market apartments in it? If so, getting a variance wouldn’t seem too tough, because they’re building a school there.

    I’m sorry, but I find it hard to believe that the community at large would shed any tears at the prospect of losing below-market housing in that building. Sure, it’d be nice to diversify a little bit, but if we can get our school, AND the condos to make the project economically viable, AND not ruin the bridge, everybody wins. And then build your low-income housing somewhere else, say, at that 205 Water St. lot that the article mentions.

    AND we’re done! Okay, Marty. Make it so…

  • what artists? they all moved out of dumbo because two trees double the rent or didn’t renew, so he could make the spaces into high end office or condos. what about the school that has to relocate because he didn’t renew the lease and is making the building into high end condos?

  • what artists? they all moved out of dumbo because two trees double the rent or didn’t renew, so he could make the spaces into high end office or condos. what about the school that has to relocate because he didn’t renew the lease and is making the building into high end condos?

  • I would say it was about even until late when all the Manhattanites showed up masquerading as Brooklynites after living here for a few short years with their talking points provided by people who could care less about the children of Brooklyn. Mose of these people will move back to the burbs when they have children of their own. I think our Borough President will see clearly thru their charade and will rule on the side of the greater good. And hopefully people of goodwill will find compromise.

  • I would say it was about even until late when all the Manhattanites showed up masquerading as Brooklynites after living here for a few short years with their talking points provided by people who could care less about the children of Brooklyn. Mose of these people will move back to the burbs when they have children of their own. I think our Borough President will see clearly thru their charade and will rule on the side of the greater good. And hopefully people of goodwill will find compromise.

  • The greater good is preserving a landmark loved worldwide – not a few yuppies who moved into the neighborhood knowing full well what the school options were – but moved in anyway. Regardless, those who are fooled by the school option will be fooled again. The school should be a separate topic and not a carrot in approving this gigantic ugly box brought upon the neighborhood (and bridge lovers alike) by the greed of the developers.

  • The greater good is preserving a landmark loved worldwide – not a few yuppies who moved into the neighborhood knowing full well what the school options were – but moved in anyway. Regardless, those who are fooled by the school option will be fooled again. The school should be a separate topic and not a carrot in approving this gigantic ugly box brought upon the neighborhood (and bridge lovers alike) by the greed of the developers.

  • davoyager…. face the facts that the majority is in opposition and that opposition has only been growing stronger. Last night showed not only the voice of the opposition but the fact there are other viable (and better) options for a school.

    Take a cue from your friend Carlo, step back from your stance just a bit and lets work to a compromise.

  • davoyager…. face the facts that the majority is in opposition and that opposition has only been growing stronger. Last night showed not only the voice of the opposition but the fact there are other viable (and better) options for a school.

    Take a cue from your friend Carlo, step back from your stance just a bit and lets work to a compromise.

  • DA:

    How can you make a statement like that if you weren’t even there? I was there for 4.5 hours and I saw many parents of school age parents (most of whom attend public school) come out against the project as proposed.

    Your post displays your wishful hoping and deep denial that many and indeed most people (including those with school aged children in the public schools) are against the project as currently configured.

    You’re entitled to your opinion, but when you weren’t there and you say, “all the Manhattanites showed up masquerading as Brooklynites” when had you been there you would have heard people living in the surrounding neighborhood all their lives and their families for generations come out against the project, you’re simply wrong. It’s not a subjective matter. You’re just objectively wrong.

    For the record, I’ve lived in Brooklyn all my life: born in Flatbush, reared in Marine Park, and for the past 25 years living in Cobble Hill and Brooklyn Heights. Your attempts to make it appear that those against the project are not real Brooklynites are pathetic.

  • DA:

    How can you make a statement like that if you weren’t even there? I was there for 4.5 hours and I saw many parents of school age parents (most of whom attend public school) come out against the project as proposed.

    Your post displays your wishful hoping and deep denial that many and indeed most people (including those with school aged children in the public schools) are against the project as currently configured.

    You’re entitled to your opinion, but when you weren’t there and you say, “all the Manhattanites showed up masquerading as Brooklynites” when had you been there you would have heard people living in the surrounding neighborhood all their lives and their families for generations come out against the project, you’re simply wrong. It’s not a subjective matter. You’re just objectively wrong.

    For the record, I’ve lived in Brooklyn all my life: born in Flatbush, reared in Marine Park, and for the past 25 years living in Cobble Hill and Brooklyn Heights. Your attempts to make it appear that those against the project are not real Brooklynites are pathetic.

  • I was there for the first 2 hours, my wife was there for an hour after that and returned toward the end with other supportive parents who were crowded out by the onrush of single people coming from work who don’t have children at home and can be out all night. you guys have done a good job whipping up this hysteria but I think cooler heads will prevail.

  • I was there for the first 2 hours, my wife was there for an hour after that and returned toward the end with other supportive parents who were crowded out by the onrush of single people coming from work who don’t have children at home and can be out all night. you guys have done a good job whipping up this hysteria but I think cooler heads will prevail.

  • this thing is getting built one way or another, and i would wager it’ll look alot like it does in the proposal right now. it would be naive to think it’ll get shot down or significantly altered it this economic climate. or perhaps we’ll get a dumbo hotel instead.

  • this thing is getting built one way or another, and i would wager it’ll look alot like it does in the proposal right now. it would be naive to think it’ll get shot down or significantly altered it this economic climate. or perhaps we’ll get a dumbo hotel instead.

  • Wow, ss everyone starts to look towards a compromise you continue spewing insults, snarky remarks, and demeaning comments.

    If you truly think cooler heads will prevail then obviously this development will be stopped, because right now your head is on fire.

  • Wow, ss everyone starts to look towards a compromise you continue spewing insults, snarky remarks, and demeaning comments.

    If you truly think cooler heads will prevail then obviously this development will be stopped, because right now your head is on fire.

  • Jane – if you can do a hotel that doesn’t go any higher than the BB roadway, then, by all means, have at it.

  • Jane – if you can do a hotel that doesn’t go any higher than the BB roadway, then, by all means, have at it.

  • How about a hotel that not only doesn’t go any highter than the BB roadway, but also doesn’t look like a carbon copy of a suburban office park.

  • How about a hotel that not only doesn’t go any highter than the BB roadway, but also doesn’t look like a carbon copy of a suburban office park.

  • Rodrigo Pocius from Vinegar Hill says:
    First, I have lived in the area for over 30 years. I have personally lied down in front of paving equipment when some company thought it would benefit the communtiy to pave over cobblestones. My dedication to the area is personal.

    ‘Affordable housing’?

    Do you honestly think a developer will make prime water-front property ‘affordable’, and who defines ‘affordable’, well the developer, of course.

    Children’s school?

    There is a middle school at 209 York Street, P.S. 307 and Satellite West, JHS. I went there. I walked 2 blocks to get to school. Can anyone please give a reason why this school is ignored by all the people claiming there is no school nearby?

    It seems that placing children in a building underneath a symbol of America is inviting disaster, and I doubt the DOE will actually do this.

    Let’s not forget, the Brooklyn Anchorage Art space was closed for security reasons.

    We will end up with a high priced rental building with no school.

    Living in the area for three decades, I have come across many people who have had all sorts of ‘good ideas’ for what should be done with the area. Most of these people don’t live here anymore. I was at the meeting, and many of the opponents of the project are neighbors of mine who have also been in the area for a long time, so please, do not insult us by saying we will move to the suburbs….none of you would even be here if not for the dedication of the early residents. I heard many people claiming the Walentas built DUMBO, that is like saying AL Gore ‘invented’ the internet.

  • Rodrigo Pocius from Vinegar Hill says:
    First, I have lived in the area for over 30 years. I have personally lied down in front of paving equipment when some company thought it would benefit the communtiy to pave over cobblestones. My dedication to the area is personal.

    ‘Affordable housing’?

    Do you honestly think a developer will make prime water-front property ‘affordable’, and who defines ‘affordable’, well the developer, of course.

    Children’s school?

    There is a middle school at 209 York Street, P.S. 307 and Satellite West, JHS. I went there. I walked 2 blocks to get to school. Can anyone please give a reason why this school is ignored by all the people claiming there is no school nearby?

    It seems that placing children in a building underneath a symbol of America is inviting disaster, and I doubt the DOE will actually do this.

    Let’s not forget, the Brooklyn Anchorage Art space was closed for security reasons.

    We will end up with a high priced rental building with no school.

    Living in the area for three decades, I have come across many people who have had all sorts of ‘good ideas’ for what should be done with the area. Most of these people don’t live here anymore. I was at the meeting, and many of the opponents of the project are neighbors of mine who have also been in the area for a long time, so please, do not insult us by saying we will move to the suburbs….none of you would even be here if not for the dedication of the early residents. I heard many people claiming the Walentas built DUMBO, that is like saying AL Gore ‘invented’ the internet.

  • walentas controls dumbo and that’s really what is relevant. the decision makers could care less how long anyone has lived here. you’re better off working with his plan than against it – like accept that this building is going to happen and focus on making the school a certainty instead of deafly resisting.

  • walentas controls dumbo and that’s really what is relevant. the decision makers could care less how long anyone has lived here. you’re better off working with his plan than against it – like accept that this building is going to happen and focus on making the school a certainty instead of deafly resisting.

  • A school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. No matter how the proposal is sugarcoated, a school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. Get the idea out of your heads. A school will never get built under a potential terrorist target. I am sure the Dept. Of Homeland Security will concur when this issue hits the national media.

    And I am sorry Brooklynlove, but the last time I checked, this country is still a democracy.

  • A school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. No matter how the proposal is sugarcoated, a school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. Get the idea out of your heads. A school will never get built under a potential terrorist target. I am sure the Dept. Of Homeland Security will concur when this issue hits the national media.

    And I am sorry Brooklynlove, but the last time I checked, this country is still a democracy.

  • you lost all credibility at your first sentence.

  • you lost all credibility at your first sentence.

  • Brooklyn Love:

    Thank you, Its nice to know there are people out there who don’t pay attention to Global Affairs.

    But it’s ok, you already lost credibility when you suggested that we must all follow the marching orders of a developer and do as he says.

    It’s a good thing that people opposed developers in the past, or we would have lost lower Manhattan to Robert Moses’ Battery Bridge proposal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_moses#Battle_of_Brooklyn_Battery_Bridge). This was fought all the way up to Franklin Roosevelt, who stopped it due to National Security concerns. Moses was forced to accept a different proposal. Walentas, in the end will have to accept a different proposal. Watch and see it happen.

  • Brooklyn Love:

    Thank you, Its nice to know there are people out there who don’t pay attention to Global Affairs.

    But it’s ok, you already lost credibility when you suggested that we must all follow the marching orders of a developer and do as he says.

    It’s a good thing that people opposed developers in the past, or we would have lost lower Manhattan to Robert Moses’ Battery Bridge proposal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_moses#Battle_of_Brooklyn_Battery_Bridge). This was fought all the way up to Franklin Roosevelt, who stopped it due to National Security concerns. Moses was forced to accept a different proposal. Walentas, in the end will have to accept a different proposal. Watch and see it happen.

  • where did i say you must follow? you can do what ever you want. if you’d like to spend your energy ranting like a lunatic and accomplishing nothing – go for it. however if you’d like to actually have an effect, you’d be better served working w/n the construct of reality. if walentas changes his proposal it will be by way of reasonable negotiation, not in response to nutjobs like you.

  • where did i say you must follow? you can do what ever you want. if you’d like to spend your energy ranting like a lunatic and accomplishing nothing – go for it. however if you’d like to actually have an effect, you’d be better served working w/n the construct of reality. if walentas changes his proposal it will be by way of reasonable negotiation, not in response to nutjobs like you.

  • No2Walentas2Trees — are you one of the people who posts on this site about panhandlers stabbing our local children with hypodermic needles?

  • No2Walentas2Trees — are you one of the people who posts on this site about panhandlers stabbing our local children with hypodermic needles?

  • Brooklyn Love: It is interesting how you state that we must work with the developer, when the developer is the one who refuses to work with the residents. A simple reduction of the size is not too much to ask.

    You further make bold statements that ‘walentes controls DUMBO’, which is contrary to a the principles ‘of the people’

    You then come with an ad hoc attack of ‘nut job’, which just shows your further lack of debate. You dismiss my concern about putting a school close to a potential terrorist target outright. I point out the closing of the Brooklyn Anchorage which just illustrates that it is. You also offer nothing to assure that this is not a real concern. No, you just attack me with insults and dismissals.

    Do you have any sensiblility? Are are you just blind? Perhaps I could sell you a Bridge?

  • Brooklyn Love: It is interesting how you state that we must work with the developer, when the developer is the one who refuses to work with the residents. A simple reduction of the size is not too much to ask.

    You further make bold statements that ‘walentes controls DUMBO’, which is contrary to a the principles ‘of the people’

    You then come with an ad hoc attack of ‘nut job’, which just shows your further lack of debate. You dismiss my concern about putting a school close to a potential terrorist target outright. I point out the closing of the Brooklyn Anchorage which just illustrates that it is. You also offer nothing to assure that this is not a real concern. No, you just attack me with insults and dismissals.

    Do you have any sensiblility? Are are you just blind? Perhaps I could sell you a Bridge?

  • Neighbor,

    That is pretty funny, but no, I am not that guy. However, I take from your question that you are someone who did not live in the neighborhood long, have no clue about how bad the crime was (and potentially could be again).

  • Neighbor,

    That is pretty funny, but no, I am not that guy. However, I take from your question that you are someone who did not live in the neighborhood long, have no clue about how bad the crime was (and potentially could be again).

  • Like a previous poster asked, what is wrong with the middle School at 209 York St?

  • Like a previous poster asked, what is wrong with the middle School at 209 York St?

  • “Do you have any sensibility?”

    yes. i suggest that you harvest some and then consider why i’m not wasting my time engaging your search for invalidation of your anti-terror campaign.

  • “Do you have any sensibility?”

    yes. i suggest that you harvest some and then consider why i’m not wasting my time engaging your search for invalidation of your anti-terror campaign.

  • Love the fact that the supporters of this project are in a small minority…..even on these boards your posts get thumbs down. Oh well, guess there are alot of ‘nutjobs’ on the board who haven’t seen the light of fanatical yupification.

    And if you people seriously think that the opponents are ‘nutjobs’, then you really don’t understand what it means to be from Brooklyn.

  • Love the fact that the supporters of this project are in a small minority…..even on these boards your posts get thumbs down. Oh well, guess there are alot of ‘nutjobs’ on the board who haven’t seen the light of fanatical yupification.

    And if you people seriously think that the opponents are ‘nutjobs’, then you really don’t understand what it means to be from Brooklyn.

  • Brooklyn Love: Is the moon made of cheese in your world?

  • Brooklyn Love: Is the moon made of cheese in your world?

  • What’s wrong with the middle school at 209 York St? Anyone? Too close to the PJs, maybe? The notion that we must degrade the BB in order to get a small school is a cynical joke.

  • What’s wrong with the middle school at 209 York St? Anyone? Too close to the PJs, maybe? The notion that we must degrade the BB in order to get a small school is a cynical joke.

  • I know very well how dangerous Dumbo used to be. Crime could spike again but Dumbo will never be what it was — for better and for worse. Those who feared a needle stick from “Cracky and Smokey” seem like serious city rookies to me.

    I was actually opposed to this project and it’s cynical use of a school until the class and race slights started flying from some of the opposition. I still think that Dock St. is cynical as hell, but we really need a school (the one on York Street is out of the PS8 school district and it’s already full) and it’s hard to turn the offer down in the face of all the good it could do. I really hope there will be a decent and timely compromise that works for all.

  • I know very well how dangerous Dumbo used to be. Crime could spike again but Dumbo will never be what it was — for better and for worse. Those who feared a needle stick from “Cracky and Smokey” seem like serious city rookies to me.

    I was actually opposed to this project and it’s cynical use of a school until the class and race slights started flying from some of the opposition. I still think that Dock St. is cynical as hell, but we really need a school (the one on York Street is out of the PS8 school district and it’s already full) and it’s hard to turn the offer down in the face of all the good it could do. I really hope there will be a decent and timely compromise that works for all.

  • neighbor,

    of course, this is a very emotional debate.

    But, in all do respect, do you really know the history of this area?

    The area known as DUMBO has had it’s periods of prosperity and decline in cycles going back decades. You can only hope it ‘will never go back’, but you can talk to the old timers to know that the area was very prosperous in the past.

    So, you cannot predict the future. The economy is in decline, and we can also only hope that people will be able to truly afford what two trees will eventually offer.

    The truly best solution, is not a new building at all.

    A new school would be a good addition, but this should be a detailed proposal. There are many variables (traffic, routes, safety, etc) that need to be studied. There should also be a real serious consideration in looking for another location, which could serve the community in a better location than dock st.

    Not only does the Brooklyn Bridge empty into the area of the proposal, so does the BQE. Even now, cars are speeding off both, and there still is heavy traffic. What is the solution to that?

    Will the school proposal eventually be dropped due to these considerations, by the various review processes to come? What then? What happens when Two Trees is allowed to build an ugly obstruction to the skyline and there still is no school? As this has become an important variable in the equation, a serious consideration of other locations should be also considered.

    And for the record, I have never feared a ‘needle stick’ by anyone, mugging, yes, needle stick no.

    But in the end, I really don’t need to explain myself to any of you, nor do I really care. I don’t like this idea, I hate it, it is ugly, and it is short sighted.

    I will talk to my politicians, you can talk to yours, and well see what the end result is.

  • neighbor,

    of course, this is a very emotional debate.

    But, in all do respect, do you really know the history of this area?

    The area known as DUMBO has had it’s periods of prosperity and decline in cycles going back decades. You can only hope it ‘will never go back’, but you can talk to the old timers to know that the area was very prosperous in the past.

    So, you cannot predict the future. The economy is in decline, and we can also only hope that people will be able to truly afford what two trees will eventually offer.

    The truly best solution, is not a new building at all.

    A new school would be a good addition, but this should be a detailed proposal. There are many variables (traffic, routes, safety, etc) that need to be studied. There should also be a real serious consideration in looking for another location, which could serve the community in a better location than dock st.

    Not only does the Brooklyn Bridge empty into the area of the proposal, so does the BQE. Even now, cars are speeding off both, and there still is heavy traffic. What is the solution to that?

    Will the school proposal eventually be dropped due to these considerations, by the various review processes to come? What then? What happens when Two Trees is allowed to build an ugly obstruction to the skyline and there still is no school? As this has become an important variable in the equation, a serious consideration of other locations should be also considered.

    And for the record, I have never feared a ‘needle stick’ by anyone, mugging, yes, needle stick no.

    But in the end, I really don’t need to explain myself to any of you, nor do I really care. I don’t like this idea, I hate it, it is ugly, and it is short sighted.

    I will talk to my politicians, you can talk to yours, and well see what the end result is.

  • I think it is a wonderful idea to put a school in this inspirational location, between these great bridges with view of one of the great natural harbors in the world from which perhaps the greatest city on earth rises from the mighty Hudson river to the highest buildings on earth…

    You guys need to share.

  • I think it is a wonderful idea to put a school in this inspirational location, between these great bridges with view of one of the great natural harbors in the world from which perhaps the greatest city on earth rises from the mighty Hudson river to the highest buildings on earth…

    You guys need to share.

  • “Love the fact that the supporters of this project are in a small minority…..even on these boards your posts get thumbs down.”

    And of course that’s indicative of the overall population having a view one way of the other.

    “Is the moon made of cheese in your world?”

    no but it sounds like a possible terrorist plot – you should lobby the city to investigate that.

  • “Love the fact that the supporters of this project are in a small minority…..even on these boards your posts get thumbs down.”

    And of course that’s indicative of the overall population having a view one way of the other.

    “Is the moon made of cheese in your world?”

    no but it sounds like a possible terrorist plot – you should lobby the city to investigate that.

  • “And if you people seriously think that the opponents are ‘nutjobs’, then you really don’t understand what it means to be from Brooklyn.”

    i don’t think that the opponents are nutjobs, i think that you’re a nutjob. 3 generations of bk has taught me pretty well what it means to be from here.

  • “And if you people seriously think that the opponents are ‘nutjobs’, then you really don’t understand what it means to be from Brooklyn.”

    i don’t think that the opponents are nutjobs, i think that you’re a nutjob. 3 generations of bk has taught me pretty well what it means to be from here.

  • I know the history of Dumbo. Cities change and evolve, neighborhoods are not static, but Dumbo has been fundamentally altered and broken in some respects from it’s past. This is not to say that the neighborhood will never see hard times again, but to suggest that the influx of thousands of stable new residents who own a stake in the neighborhood will leave en masse is naive. “No2Walentas2Trees”, you’ve displayed a certain amount of hysteria in your posts. If it’s too dangerous to have a school under the bridge, then it’s certainly too dangerous to have the building zoned for residential use — particularly by the young families who will are increasingly drawn to Dumbo.

    I doubt that Two Trees will have a difficult time filling this building, assuming it ever goes up in any form, be it rental or condos. The economy is in very serious trouble, but that does not change the density problems in NYC, and particularly not in a neighborhood as small and lovely as ours. While I understand that the scale of the Dock St. project is not a step in an ideal direction, but I haven’t seen compelling arguments from the opposition aside from the great Mr. McCollough’s letter. There has been too much bickering, NIMBYism and opposition to the presence of the “wrong” children in “our” neighborhood.

    We can do studies of half a dozen other locations, but will we find a property holder at any of them who will be willing to essentially donate a school to the city? If so, wonderful, but who else has the $ and mindset (self-serving or not) to do such a thing?

  • I know the history of Dumbo. Cities change and evolve, neighborhoods are not static, but Dumbo has been fundamentally altered and broken in some respects from it’s past. This is not to say that the neighborhood will never see hard times again, but to suggest that the influx of thousands of stable new residents who own a stake in the neighborhood will leave en masse is naive. “No2Walentas2Trees”, you’ve displayed a certain amount of hysteria in your posts. If it’s too dangerous to have a school under the bridge, then it’s certainly too dangerous to have the building zoned for residential use — particularly by the young families who will are increasingly drawn to Dumbo.

    I doubt that Two Trees will have a difficult time filling this building, assuming it ever goes up in any form, be it rental or condos. The economy is in very serious trouble, but that does not change the density problems in NYC, and particularly not in a neighborhood as small and lovely as ours. While I understand that the scale of the Dock St. project is not a step in an ideal direction, but I haven’t seen compelling arguments from the opposition aside from the great Mr. McCollough’s letter. There has been too much bickering, NIMBYism and opposition to the presence of the “wrong” children in “our” neighborhood.

    We can do studies of half a dozen other locations, but will we find a property holder at any of them who will be willing to essentially donate a school to the city? If so, wonderful, but who else has the $ and mindset (self-serving or not) to do such a thing?

  • The most important thing is that the the school will never be built. The DOE has not committed to building the school there. Two Trees is not offering the space for free. They’re not funding the creation of the school.

    What Two Trees is really saying is, “If the DOE wants to lease commercial space from us to use it as a school, we will allow it.”

    What are the penalties for Two Trees if it puts up the building, and then the DOE cannot afford or does not want a school there? None.

    The Department of Ed is running an enormous (> $1b) deficit at the moment because both the city and state are cutting its funding. I don’t see them signing up for a brand new expensive lease to build a school for some of the city’s most privileged children. (I’m not trying to instigate here, but think about it… a lot of neighborhoods need the education money more than Dumbo.)

    Add to that the fact that they are proposing a huge, ugly modern building in front of the Brooklyn Bridge in a suspiciously unlandmarked street between the DUMBO historic district and the Fulton Ferry Historic District.

    While I’m sure they like the idea of a school in the neighborhood (in the same way that they like the used book store on Front St), let’s be real here… their motivation is to use the school as a bargaining chip to build a large building that will make them more money than a smaller more appropriate one.

  • The most important thing is that the the school will never be built. The DOE has not committed to building the school there. Two Trees is not offering the space for free. They’re not funding the creation of the school.

    What Two Trees is really saying is, “If the DOE wants to lease commercial space from us to use it as a school, we will allow it.”

    What are the penalties for Two Trees if it puts up the building, and then the DOE cannot afford or does not want a school there? None.

    The Department of Ed is running an enormous (> $1b) deficit at the moment because both the city and state are cutting its funding. I don’t see them signing up for a brand new expensive lease to build a school for some of the city’s most privileged children. (I’m not trying to instigate here, but think about it… a lot of neighborhoods need the education money more than Dumbo.)

    Add to that the fact that they are proposing a huge, ugly modern building in front of the Brooklyn Bridge in a suspiciously unlandmarked street between the DUMBO historic district and the Fulton Ferry Historic District.

    While I’m sure they like the idea of a school in the neighborhood (in the same way that they like the used book store on Front St), let’s be real here… their motivation is to use the school as a bargaining chip to build a large building that will make them more money than a smaller more appropriate one.

  • I emailed marty this yesterday:
    Dear Mr. Markowitz,

    I was unable to attend the meeting last night concerning the Dock Street proposal. My family and I reside in DUMBO and are apposed to the project. We love our neighborhood dearly and love raising our daughter here. There are a lot of arguments that focus on the Brooklyn Bridge itself that I agree with. The bridge is not a NY landmark, rather a world icon that should be cherished and respected. This building does not respect the bridge and is out of context with the neighborhood that was recently zoned as historical. One of the allures of DUMBO is its historical architecture that runs from Fulton Ferry through Vinegar Hill. With the exception of a couple developments erected prior to zoning, this neighborhood has stayed true to its architectural heritage. The Dock St. proposal would drive a knife directly through the heart of DUMBO, a wonderful neighborhood emerging as destination for visitors to enjoy the architecture and atmosphere of old NY. With the creation and construction of the park upon us, our neighborhood will continue to grow and prosper. The Dock St. proposal is counter to everything this neighborhood is. Discussions on the proposal have been bantered around on the streets of our neighborhood and I, personally, know of no one that supports it. The petitions have been signed and for a small community, I believe we have spoken loud. We have invested our hearts into this community and would hate to see a mistake like this be allowed to happen. This building will never be considered the legacy of good judgement, rather the result of bad development and greed. Please help guard the integrity of our neighborhood and protect the community of DUMBO and appose this development.

  • I emailed marty this yesterday:
    Dear Mr. Markowitz,

    I was unable to attend the meeting last night concerning the Dock Street proposal. My family and I reside in DUMBO and are apposed to the project. We love our neighborhood dearly and love raising our daughter here. There are a lot of arguments that focus on the Brooklyn Bridge itself that I agree with. The bridge is not a NY landmark, rather a world icon that should be cherished and respected. This building does not respect the bridge and is out of context with the neighborhood that was recently zoned as historical. One of the allures of DUMBO is its historical architecture that runs from Fulton Ferry through Vinegar Hill. With the exception of a couple developments erected prior to zoning, this neighborhood has stayed true to its architectural heritage. The Dock St. proposal would drive a knife directly through the heart of DUMBO, a wonderful neighborhood emerging as destination for visitors to enjoy the architecture and atmosphere of old NY. With the creation and construction of the park upon us, our neighborhood will continue to grow and prosper. The Dock St. proposal is counter to everything this neighborhood is. Discussions on the proposal have been bantered around on the streets of our neighborhood and I, personally, know of no one that supports it. The petitions have been signed and for a small community, I believe we have spoken loud. We have invested our hearts into this community and would hate to see a mistake like this be allowed to happen. This building will never be considered the legacy of good judgement, rather the result of bad development and greed. Please help guard the integrity of our neighborhood and protect the community of DUMBO and appose this development.

  • Brooklyn Love: You can call me a ‘nutjob’ all you want. But it was the nutjobs of this country that created any real social change and justice, not the ‘status quo’ people.

    So honestly, I really don’t care what you think. You act like a member of a cult. I am sure you arrived to BK in a Borg Cube ship with your ‘resistance is futile’ argument.

    Fact remains, the economy is in decline, there are empty buildings everywhere now. These development projects are not needed.

    I really don’t care for ‘compromise’, granted I do think a school is a good idea, but let that happen through public action, not through a corporation, and I am all for education, let’s all unite behind that, perhaps the city can acquire the land and build only a school.

    I do not like the proposal, period. IMHO, the developer bought the land knowing what the laws were. It is his loss if suddenly he isn’t allowed to build his little project. He should just write it off and let only a school be built instead.

    The building is ugly period. It lacks any character, it is a blight, sore thumb, it is like spray paint on the Mona Lisa. It should not happen at all. No compromise. School yes, Building no.

  • Brooklyn Love: You can call me a ‘nutjob’ all you want. But it was the nutjobs of this country that created any real social change and justice, not the ‘status quo’ people.

    So honestly, I really don’t care what you think. You act like a member of a cult. I am sure you arrived to BK in a Borg Cube ship with your ‘resistance is futile’ argument.

    Fact remains, the economy is in decline, there are empty buildings everywhere now. These development projects are not needed.

    I really don’t care for ‘compromise’, granted I do think a school is a good idea, but let that happen through public action, not through a corporation, and I am all for education, let’s all unite behind that, perhaps the city can acquire the land and build only a school.

    I do not like the proposal, period. IMHO, the developer bought the land knowing what the laws were. It is his loss if suddenly he isn’t allowed to build his little project. He should just write it off and let only a school be built instead.

    The building is ugly period. It lacks any character, it is a blight, sore thumb, it is like spray paint on the Mona Lisa. It should not happen at all. No compromise. School yes, Building no.

  • Just wanted to correct the following statement from Kevin135’s post:

    ” I don’t see them signing up for a brand new expensive lease to build a school”

    The city would have to foot the bill to “build out” the school. I believe Walentas will only deliver raw space. But there is no costly lease. Two Trees has offered the space for $1 per year for 99 years. The cost to design and complete the interior of the school space could be costly, but I have no idea what kind of $ that would be.

  • Just wanted to correct the following statement from Kevin135’s post:

    ” I don’t see them signing up for a brand new expensive lease to build a school”

    The city would have to foot the bill to “build out” the school. I believe Walentas will only deliver raw space. But there is no costly lease. Two Trees has offered the space for $1 per year for 99 years. The cost to design and complete the interior of the school space could be costly, but I have no idea what kind of $ that would be.

  • Davoyager-

    ‘You guys need to share’

    No we don’t.

    LOL!

    School Yes! Building No!

    And if being a fanatical nutjob about the bridge is a sin, then may God forgive me as it is much better than being a fanatical yuppie!

  • Davoyager-

    ‘You guys need to share’

    No we don’t.

    LOL!

    School Yes! Building No!

    And if being a fanatical nutjob about the bridge is a sin, then may God forgive me as it is much better than being a fanatical yuppie!



  • Stocks sink as unemployment claims reach new high

    NEW YORK – Caution returned to Wall Street Thursday as unemployment claims reached a record high and new home sales hit a record low — two glaring signs that the economy is still in a deep slump. The major stock indexes gave back all of Wednesday’s gains, and then some.

    The Dow Jones industrial average sank 226 points, or 2.7 percent, while other indicators tumbled more than 3 percent. On Wednesday, stocks had soared on hopes that the government will take bad debt off banks’ books.

    Investors took a step back Thursday after getting some harsh reminders that it might be a while before the nation’s 14-month-old recession ends, even if banks get more aid.

    The Labor Department said the number of people continuing to receive unemployment benefits reached a seasonally adjusted 4.78 million week ending Jan. 17 — the highest level on records that go back to 1967. As a proportion of the work force, the total is the highest since August 1983.

    Who is going to be able to afford the ‘affordable’ units, much less the not so ‘affordable’ units?



  • Stocks sink as unemployment claims reach new high

    NEW YORK – Caution returned to Wall Street Thursday as unemployment claims reached a record high and new home sales hit a record low — two glaring signs that the economy is still in a deep slump. The major stock indexes gave back all of Wednesday’s gains, and then some.

    The Dow Jones industrial average sank 226 points, or 2.7 percent, while other indicators tumbled more than 3 percent. On Wednesday, stocks had soared on hopes that the government will take bad debt off banks’ books.

    Investors took a step back Thursday after getting some harsh reminders that it might be a while before the nation’s 14-month-old recession ends, even if banks get more aid.

    The Labor Department said the number of people continuing to receive unemployment benefits reached a seasonally adjusted 4.78 million week ending Jan. 17 — the highest level on records that go back to 1967. As a proportion of the work force, the total is the highest since August 1983.

    Who is going to be able to afford the ‘affordable’ units, much less the not so ‘affordable’ units?



  • Stocks sink as unemployment claims reach new high

    NEW YORK – Caution returned to Wall Street Thursday as unemployment claims reached a record high and new home sales hit a record low — two glaring signs that the economy is still in a deep slump. The major stock indexes gave back all of Wednesday’s gains, and then some.

    The Dow Jones industrial average sank 226 points, or 2.7 percent, while other indicators tumbled more than 3 percent. On Wednesday, stocks had soared on hopes that the government will take bad debt off banks’ books.

    Investors took a step back Thursday after getting some harsh reminders that it might be a while before the nation’s 14-month-old recession ends, even if banks get more aid.

    The Labor Department said the number of people continuing to receive unemployment benefits reached a seasonally adjusted 4.78 million week ending Jan. 17 — the highest level on records that go back to 1967. As a proportion of the work force, the total is the highest since August 1983.

    Stocks sink as unemployment claims reach new high

    Who is going to be able to afford the ‘affordable’ units, much less the not so ‘affordable’ units?



  • Stocks sink as unemployment claims reach new high

    NEW YORK – Caution returned to Wall Street Thursday as unemployment claims reached a record high and new home sales hit a record low — two glaring signs that the economy is still in a deep slump. The major stock indexes gave back all of Wednesday’s gains, and then some.

    The Dow Jones industrial average sank 226 points, or 2.7 percent, while other indicators tumbled more than 3 percent. On Wednesday, stocks had soared on hopes that the government will take bad debt off banks’ books.

    Investors took a step back Thursday after getting some harsh reminders that it might be a while before the nation’s 14-month-old recession ends, even if banks get more aid.

    The Labor Department said the number of people continuing to receive unemployment benefits reached a seasonally adjusted 4.78 million week ending Jan. 17 — the highest level on records that go back to 1967. As a proportion of the work force, the total is the highest since August 1983.

    Stocks sink as unemployment claims reach new high

    Who is going to be able to afford the ‘affordable’ units, much less the not so ‘affordable’ units?

  • “So honestly, I really don’t care what you think. You act like a member of a cult. I am sure you arrived to BK in a Borg Cube ship with your ‘resistance is futile’ argument.”

    all of us blind souls who don’t believe the voices in your head are in a cult.

    are you related to this guy?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski

  • “So honestly, I really don’t care what you think. You act like a member of a cult. I am sure you arrived to BK in a Borg Cube ship with your ‘resistance is futile’ argument.”

    all of us blind souls who don’t believe the voices in your head are in a cult.

    are you related to this guy?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski

  • Brooklyn Love,

    you are really a sad little person aren’t you?

    “walentas controls dumbo and that’s really what is relevant.”

    Sounds like you have some type of hero worship.

    “the decision makers could care less how long anyone has lived here.”

    Yes, who care what the locals think. They MUST assimilate!

    “you’re better off working with his plan than against it”

    Prepare to be assimilated, Resistance is Futile!

    “like accept that this building is going to happen”

    Resistance is Futile!

    “and focus on making the school a certainty instead of deafly resisting.”

    Don’t consider any alternative! Our way! Resistance is futile! Assimilate! Obey!

  • Brooklyn Love,

    you are really a sad little person aren’t you?

    “walentas controls dumbo and that’s really what is relevant.”

    Sounds like you have some type of hero worship.

    “the decision makers could care less how long anyone has lived here.”

    Yes, who care what the locals think. They MUST assimilate!

    “you’re better off working with his plan than against it”

    Prepare to be assimilated, Resistance is Futile!

    “like accept that this building is going to happen”

    Resistance is Futile!

    “and focus on making the school a certainty instead of deafly resisting.”

    Don’t consider any alternative! Our way! Resistance is futile! Assimilate! Obey!

  • “A school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. No matter how the proposal is sugarcoated, a school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. Get the idea out of your heads. A school will never get built under a potential terrorist target. I am sure the Dept. Of Homeland Security will concur when this issue hits the national media.”

    nuff said

  • “A school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. No matter how the proposal is sugarcoated, a school under a potential terrorist target is not a good idea. Get the idea out of your heads. A school will never get built under a potential terrorist target. I am sure the Dept. Of Homeland Security will concur when this issue hits the national media.”

    nuff said

  • I’m sorry Brooklynlove, are you quoting yourself? By your reasoning my kid shouldn’t be going to Millennium High School near Wall Street. By your reasoning we shouldn’t build skyscrapers or fly in airplanes.
    That’s got to be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read on this blog.
    nuff said

  • I’m sorry Brooklynlove, are you quoting yourself? By your reasoning my kid shouldn’t be going to Millennium High School near Wall Street. By your reasoning we shouldn’t build skyscrapers or fly in airplanes.
    That’s got to be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read on this blog.
    nuff said

  • Well, case in point. The big ass brick building on the corner of Jay and Water has been offered up as a school option. This space at a glance could sit quite a few more than 300 seats. Oh yeah and there is a huge empty lot behind it now. That could make a great additional school space… or an open space/outdoor space since some kids need a place to smoke and beat each other up. And that school would only be a few blocks from the F @ York Street, much more convenient for anybody who needs to hop a subway to/from it on a daily basis. And it is more in the epicenter of the neighborhood, more accessible to families in Dumbo, Vinegar Hill, and the projects everybody likes to marginalize.

    I am sure if the DOE were not being lazy, and actually attempted to be resourceful or do some form of what passes as their jobs they could negotiate a better or comparable ‘deal’ for these spaces or other spaces in the area just like them.

    Walentas love to absorb credit for making this neighborhood. I am pretty sure what makes this neighborhood, aside the people who live and work here, is the majesty of the bridges and all of the random architectural details around them, the layers of history on the streets, the classic lofty spaces, the lack of major through traffic, the relatively quiet streets, the close proximity to the city proper and equally to some of the most interesting brooklyn neighborhoods, and the waterfront. All Walentas did was market this neighborhood. And even if they hadn’t people would have figured out during boom time that the first stop in Brooklyn, on the water, with majestic views and lofts, would be a good area to invest in or occupy.

  • Well, case in point. The big ass brick building on the corner of Jay and Water has been offered up as a school option. This space at a glance could sit quite a few more than 300 seats. Oh yeah and there is a huge empty lot behind it now. That could make a great additional school space… or an open space/outdoor space since some kids need a place to smoke and beat each other up. And that school would only be a few blocks from the F @ York Street, much more convenient for anybody who needs to hop a subway to/from it on a daily basis. And it is more in the epicenter of the neighborhood, more accessible to families in Dumbo, Vinegar Hill, and the projects everybody likes to marginalize.

    I am sure if the DOE were not being lazy, and actually attempted to be resourceful or do some form of what passes as their jobs they could negotiate a better or comparable ‘deal’ for these spaces or other spaces in the area just like them.

    Walentas love to absorb credit for making this neighborhood. I am pretty sure what makes this neighborhood, aside the people who live and work here, is the majesty of the bridges and all of the random architectural details around them, the layers of history on the streets, the classic lofty spaces, the lack of major through traffic, the relatively quiet streets, the close proximity to the city proper and equally to some of the most interesting brooklyn neighborhoods, and the waterfront. All Walentas did was market this neighborhood. And even if they hadn’t people would have figured out during boom time that the first stop in Brooklyn, on the water, with majestic views and lofts, would be a good area to invest in or occupy.

  • yes well the owner of that building will want $50 million for it and tt is giving brand new ultra modern space fo free,
    The DOE is lazy and broke and they are being given a school here.
    Yes, where were the local politicians when this other stuff was built? Where is the school? They have failed the community and we can’t trust them to find a school elsewhere when they haven’t done so in 40 years.

    And yeah this is a lovely neighborhood which has been growing by leaps and bounds for years now. You are not allowed in NYC to close the gate behind you. Greenwich Village, Brooklyn Heights, East village, SOHO, DUMBO, the story is always the same in NY as neighborhoods are discovered and developed. NY is a city which continues to grow. We don’t apoligize for that.

  • yes well the owner of that building will want $50 million for it and tt is giving brand new ultra modern space fo free,
    The DOE is lazy and broke and they are being given a school here.
    Yes, where were the local politicians when this other stuff was built? Where is the school? They have failed the community and we can’t trust them to find a school elsewhere when they haven’t done so in 40 years.

    And yeah this is a lovely neighborhood which has been growing by leaps and bounds for years now. You are not allowed in NYC to close the gate behind you. Greenwich Village, Brooklyn Heights, East village, SOHO, DUMBO, the story is always the same in NY as neighborhoods are discovered and developed. NY is a city which continues to grow. We don’t apoligize for that.

  • Loose – I’m quoting this loon – No2Walentas2Trees

    scroll up for the full disaster. And i coudldn’t agree more with your take, except for the attribution to me.

  • Loose – I’m quoting this loon – No2Walentas2Trees

    scroll up for the full disaster. And i coudldn’t agree more with your take, except for the attribution to me.

  • Sorry, BL, I was suffering from scroll fatigue.

  • Sorry, BL, I was suffering from scroll fatigue.

  • Regarding The Brooklyn Paper –

    Of course The Brooklyn paper says yes to Dock Street.

    A mock-up of the Dock Street project sits in their window at their Henry Street distribution center.

    They are a tenant in a Washington Street (DUMBO) building owned by Two Trees and are probably given reduced rent or perhaps free rent in exchange for their positive stance and willingness to display the mock-up.

  • Regarding The Brooklyn Paper –

    Of course The Brooklyn paper says yes to Dock Street.

    A mock-up of the Dock Street project sits in their window at their Henry Street distribution center.

    They are a tenant in a Washington Street (DUMBO) building owned by Two Trees and are probably given reduced rent or perhaps free rent in exchange for their positive stance and willingness to display the mock-up.

  • Brooklyn love:

    I enjoy you calling me nuts. I really don’t care. You can keep at it. It still doesn’t take away from the fact that this project is ugly, will look horrendous, and will never have a school.

    Davoyager: District 13 already has a middle school in the area. You people don’t really do any research do you?

    Also please explain how the DOE, which is currently laying off teachers and cutting it’s budget will want to open a school. You people are being hoodwinked to such a degree that it is either funny or sad to watch.

    Also, you cannot ‘discover’ a neighborhood that has already been discovered. There was a DUMBO before Walentas.

  • Brooklyn love:

    I enjoy you calling me nuts. I really don’t care. You can keep at it. It still doesn’t take away from the fact that this project is ugly, will look horrendous, and will never have a school.

    Davoyager: District 13 already has a middle school in the area. You people don’t really do any research do you?

    Also please explain how the DOE, which is currently laying off teachers and cutting it’s budget will want to open a school. You people are being hoodwinked to such a degree that it is either funny or sad to watch.

    Also, you cannot ‘discover’ a neighborhood that has already been discovered. There was a DUMBO before Walentas.

  • Massive job cuts headed to NYC’s Dept. of Education

    BY DONNA BECK | wpix.com

    January 29, 2009
    NEW YORK, N.Y. (WPIX) — United Federation of Teachers President, Randi Weingarten is urging the public to pressure lawmakers to protect teachers’ jobs. Weingarten is reacting to the news that the city could be forced to fire about 12% of the Education Department’s workforce, most of which would be teachers.

  • Massive job cuts headed to NYC’s Dept. of Education

    BY DONNA BECK | wpix.com

    January 29, 2009
    NEW YORK, N.Y. (WPIX) — United Federation of Teachers President, Randi Weingarten is urging the public to pressure lawmakers to protect teachers’ jobs. Weingarten is reacting to the news that the city could be forced to fire about 12% of the Education Department’s workforce, most of which would be teachers.

  • alinear:

    Great post, you get it. The proponents of this projects really don’t understand the neighborhood, it’s history, artistic value, nothing.

    Your point about the location of the school to be at Jay and Water is right on. The location is centralized and would better serve the communities involved. It would also be a safer location for Children to go to school as well.

  • alinear:

    Great post, you get it. The proponents of this projects really don’t understand the neighborhood, it’s history, artistic value, nothing.

    Your point about the location of the school to be at Jay and Water is right on. The location is centralized and would better serve the communities involved. It would also be a safer location for Children to go to school as well.

  • district 13 has a number of middle schools, all far away, all disasters. We are trying to build a neighborhood school like there are all over the city which this community can nurture and support the way we have PS 8.
    Also, not that u care, but the stimulus package will make all those education cut backs unnecessary. This new administration is all about salvaging public education and we are trying to do that on the local level.
    but how can I expect spoiled rich kids to understand the public school experience I went thru on these streets 40 years ago and my children are going thru now. You don’t want this building? Make room for schools in your condo building then huh? how bout it? Can I have yours? I’ll need maybe 5 or 6 of those pricy condos to make a nice neighborhood school.
    Comon pony up dudes.

  • district 13 has a number of middle schools, all far away, all disasters. We are trying to build a neighborhood school like there are all over the city which this community can nurture and support the way we have PS 8.
    Also, not that u care, but the stimulus package will make all those education cut backs unnecessary. This new administration is all about salvaging public education and we are trying to do that on the local level.
    but how can I expect spoiled rich kids to understand the public school experience I went thru on these streets 40 years ago and my children are going thru now. You don’t want this building? Make room for schools in your condo building then huh? how bout it? Can I have yours? I’ll need maybe 5 or 6 of those pricy condos to make a nice neighborhood school.
    Comon pony up dudes.

  • I’m with you, davoyager. Every time No2Walenta2Trees shows up here with a smug and preachy post I want the school all the more. I’ll be writing to Marty on a daily basis until he submits his opinion on the school.

  • I’m with you, davoyager. Every time No2Walenta2Trees shows up here with a smug and preachy post I want the school all the more. I’ll be writing to Marty on a daily basis until he submits his opinion on the school.

  • At first I dismissed Brooklynlove’s point completely. I’ve since reconsidered. I think it is a real point for consideration. In hindsight, any reasonable person can see that it was dumb for Guiliani to insist that the OEM command center be located at the WTC. Even though the WTC had already been bombed and there were critics at the time, he pushed it forward and dismissed his critics. I’m sure privately he was calling them stupid, just as brooklynlove has been dismissed as stupid in this thread. However, look what happened. There is a reason for the presence of a police boat under the BB at all times, as well police presence on the roadway at either side. If the BB goes down, its gonna literally land on Dock St. What, you don’t think its plausible? Would any serious-minded person propose putting a school in the Empire State Building in this day and age? The Brooklyn Bridge is a high value and very accessible target. Its probably the least protectible out of other potential terrorist targets like the Statue of Liberty, NYSE, ESB, or City Hall. This issue IS relevant in post 9-11 New York. It should be part of the discussion.

  • At first I dismissed Brooklynlove’s point completely. I’ve since reconsidered. I think it is a real point for consideration. In hindsight, any reasonable person can see that it was dumb for Guiliani to insist that the OEM command center be located at the WTC. Even though the WTC had already been bombed and there were critics at the time, he pushed it forward and dismissed his critics. I’m sure privately he was calling them stupid, just as brooklynlove has been dismissed as stupid in this thread. However, look what happened. There is a reason for the presence of a police boat under the BB at all times, as well police presence on the roadway at either side. If the BB goes down, its gonna literally land on Dock St. What, you don’t think its plausible? Would any serious-minded person propose putting a school in the Empire State Building in this day and age? The Brooklyn Bridge is a high value and very accessible target. Its probably the least protectible out of other potential terrorist targets like the Statue of Liberty, NYSE, ESB, or City Hall. This issue IS relevant in post 9-11 New York. It should be part of the discussion.

  • So daddy mack are we to live our lives not building skyscrapers, flying in planes, etc. Maybe we should ship all the children to the country side. with you the terrorists have indeed won.

  • So daddy mack are we to live our lives not building skyscrapers, flying in planes, etc. Maybe we should ship all the children to the country side. with you the terrorists have indeed won.

  • stool – thats a complete distortion of the issue…would you put a school in the Freedom Tower or the ESB? Why not? I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would propose putting the OEM command center back in the WTC (even if it had not been permanently relocated already). Why not? Unlike your clumsy analogies, the BB is neither a garden variety skyscraper nor is it one of thousands of flights which occur daily. I don’t see police boats permanently stationed under any other bridges, do you? I’m not saying its the end of the discussion on Dock St., I’m saying it should be one of many factors being considered. Sorry stool, we no longer have the luxury of closing our eyes and believing that geographic distance will protect us. Those days are gone. I guess in your view the terrorists “have indeed won” because we are now more security conscious as a society. In my opinion, your view is a simplistic and irrational response to present conditions.

  • stool – thats a complete distortion of the issue…would you put a school in the Freedom Tower or the ESB? Why not? I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would propose putting the OEM command center back in the WTC (even if it had not been permanently relocated already). Why not? Unlike your clumsy analogies, the BB is neither a garden variety skyscraper nor is it one of thousands of flights which occur daily. I don’t see police boats permanently stationed under any other bridges, do you? I’m not saying its the end of the discussion on Dock St., I’m saying it should be one of many factors being considered. Sorry stool, we no longer have the luxury of closing our eyes and believing that geographic distance will protect us. Those days are gone. I guess in your view the terrorists “have indeed won” because we are now more security conscious as a society. In my opinion, your view is a simplistic and irrational response to present conditions.

  • Well daddy mack why do you draw the line at children why should we let anybody go in the ESB or cross the BB? Are you naive enough to believe there is actual danger for the brooklyn bridge. Does it ever cross your mind that the police are literally show boating. For your information “present conditions” indicate no terriorist attacks for the last 7 years. It is limp wristed fear mongers like yourself who would have us living in caves as the safest course of action.

  • Well daddy mack why do you draw the line at children why should we let anybody go in the ESB or cross the BB? Are you naive enough to believe there is actual danger for the brooklyn bridge. Does it ever cross your mind that the police are literally show boating. For your information “present conditions” indicate no terriorist attacks for the last 7 years. It is limp wristed fear mongers like yourself who would have us living in caves as the safest course of action.

  • The terrorism angle is legitimate considering that over 7 years later, the performance space Art in the Anchorage is still closed. Furthermore, although their parents chose to live in this area, with its pluses and minuses, the children had no say in the matter, and shouldn’t they be given a better location to attend middle school than adjacent to the Brooklyn Bridge? The pollution from the parking garage below and the cars on the very close BQE is enough of a reason, even if you disregard the terrorist threat argument. Letitia James’ testimony at CB2 (I believe it was her) about how the LEED certification would be just what her constituents need because of their high asthma rates, would be laughable if it weren’t so sad, in light of the aforementioned pollution.

    Also, there is the 5 year repainting of the Bridge to consider, which is scheduled to continue beyond the hoped-for 2012 opening of the school. In an article on 8/13/08 in the NY Post, there is the following point made, discussing the former Purchase Building site (across the street from the planned school):

    “The 85-acre Brooklyn Bridge Park project now under construction calls for using this one acre of land under the bridge seasonally for an ice-skating rink in the winter and a public market or plaza during warmer weather.

    But a DOT spokesman said the property can’t be turned over as parkland until at least five years of bridge rehabilitation work is done first. Besides needing the site for storage during the bridge job, he said there will be sandblasting and painting done under the span and that the public should be nowhere near the area during this time.”

    ‘Nuff said.

  • The terrorism angle is legitimate considering that over 7 years later, the performance space Art in the Anchorage is still closed. Furthermore, although their parents chose to live in this area, with its pluses and minuses, the children had no say in the matter, and shouldn’t they be given a better location to attend middle school than adjacent to the Brooklyn Bridge? The pollution from the parking garage below and the cars on the very close BQE is enough of a reason, even if you disregard the terrorist threat argument. Letitia James’ testimony at CB2 (I believe it was her) about how the LEED certification would be just what her constituents need because of their high asthma rates, would be laughable if it weren’t so sad, in light of the aforementioned pollution.

    Also, there is the 5 year repainting of the Bridge to consider, which is scheduled to continue beyond the hoped-for 2012 opening of the school. In an article on 8/13/08 in the NY Post, there is the following point made, discussing the former Purchase Building site (across the street from the planned school):

    “The 85-acre Brooklyn Bridge Park project now under construction calls for using this one acre of land under the bridge seasonally for an ice-skating rink in the winter and a public market or plaza during warmer weather.

    But a DOT spokesman said the property can’t be turned over as parkland until at least five years of bridge rehabilitation work is done first. Besides needing the site for storage during the bridge job, he said there will be sandblasting and painting done under the span and that the public should be nowhere near the area during this time.”

    ‘Nuff said.

  • Hypothetically, lets say they end up building this thing.

    Who the hell would pay to live above a middle school?!?!??

  • Hypothetically, lets say they end up building this thing.

    Who the hell would pay to live above a middle school?!?!??

  • Look, you can keep making peripheral arguments or you can accept reality and negotiate. the only people impressed with your points are the people who don’t want the building, which gets you nowhere.

  • Look, you can keep making peripheral arguments or you can accept reality and negotiate. the only people impressed with your points are the people who don’t want the building, which gets you nowhere.

  • The pressure on this neighborhood to change from a post industrial wasteland is to great not to build. The city needs more money and Dumbo is practically virgin forest. You can argue against the school but it is inevitable that something will be built there.

  • The pressure on this neighborhood to change from a post industrial wasteland is to great not to build. The city needs more money and Dumbo is practically virgin forest. You can argue against the school but it is inevitable that something will be built there.

  • I find it funny that anyone opposed to the project is assumed to live in a cushy condo. You people are ridiculous. Talk about being spoiled. You come to a neighborhood because you like how it looks, you fully realize there are no schools…and then complain because the long time residents don’t like how you people want to remake the neighborhood. Sure, build the building, make your ‘mark’, make the skyline ugly. You then want to support a developer who also fully understood what the laws are, but doesn’t care.

    If any of you really believe that these untis will be ‘affordable’ and you will get a school, then I have a wondeful bargain for you

  • I find it funny that anyone opposed to the project is assumed to live in a cushy condo. You people are ridiculous. Talk about being spoiled. You come to a neighborhood because you like how it looks, you fully realize there are no schools…and then complain because the long time residents don’t like how you people want to remake the neighborhood. Sure, build the building, make your ‘mark’, make the skyline ugly. You then want to support a developer who also fully understood what the laws are, but doesn’t care.

    If any of you really believe that these untis will be ‘affordable’ and you will get a school, then I have a wondeful bargain for you

  • LooseStool:

    Wow, amazing! The police aren’t protecting us, they are showboating! It’s all for show! No attacks in 7 years! An ideology that has been fighting the west for hundreds of years has given up! OBL is singing ‘We are the World’.

  • LooseStool:

    Wow, amazing! The police aren’t protecting us, they are showboating! It’s all for show! No attacks in 7 years! An ideology that has been fighting the west for hundreds of years has given up! OBL is singing ‘We are the World’.

  • I find it strange that some of the opposition does not understand that good public school districts are hard won. Many of us moved here because we love the neighborhood, and because we had the added bonus of our excellent local PS8 K-5 school. And PS8 is such a wonderful school only because so many local parents fought for years to make it so. Adding a middle school of a similar quality in our neighborhood is a no-brainer. It will be good for everyone. It will raise everyone’s property values, add stability to the community and it will benefit so many families.

    ‘No2Walentas2Trees’s’ statement above which I will quote here again is as glib as it is uninformed: “You come to a neighborhood because you like how it looks, you fully realize there are no schools…” We have a tremendous local resource in PS 8, why not build on it? There is nothing wrong with change and growth. This neighborhood used to be crime ridden — would you have preferred to keep it that way?

  • I find it strange that some of the opposition does not understand that good public school districts are hard won. Many of us moved here because we love the neighborhood, and because we had the added bonus of our excellent local PS8 K-5 school. And PS8 is such a wonderful school only because so many local parents fought for years to make it so. Adding a middle school of a similar quality in our neighborhood is a no-brainer. It will be good for everyone. It will raise everyone’s property values, add stability to the community and it will benefit so many families.

    ‘No2Walentas2Trees’s’ statement above which I will quote here again is as glib as it is uninformed: “You come to a neighborhood because you like how it looks, you fully realize there are no schools…” We have a tremendous local resource in PS 8, why not build on it? There is nothing wrong with change and growth. This neighborhood used to be crime ridden — would you have preferred to keep it that way?

  • Again, why do you need to make the skyline ugly to get a school? Why must a developer be allowed to change local laws at his whim? Do laws not apply to the rich? Is this what you are saying is ok? Why should this behavior be encouraged? Because of a school? What lesson does that teach? So because of a school (which is not guaranteed), laws are irrelevant. Is this the lesson here?

    Perhaps you should take a nice walk and look at all the empty buildings, with high rent, that have already been put up.

    I fully understand the ‘we need a school’ argument, however it can be done without having to ruin the skyline, and be more effective. There are many reasons (no DOE guarantee, BB to be re-painted) that would go against having a school. How silly will you all feel when the ugliest building in the area ruins the skyline, and you still have to find a school for your kids? What then? Will you all shake your heads and say ‘how could we have known’?

    It is actually quite amusing to see a developer use you people as pawns.

  • Again, why do you need to make the skyline ugly to get a school? Why must a developer be allowed to change local laws at his whim? Do laws not apply to the rich? Is this what you are saying is ok? Why should this behavior be encouraged? Because of a school? What lesson does that teach? So because of a school (which is not guaranteed), laws are irrelevant. Is this the lesson here?

    Perhaps you should take a nice walk and look at all the empty buildings, with high rent, that have already been put up.

    I fully understand the ‘we need a school’ argument, however it can be done without having to ruin the skyline, and be more effective. There are many reasons (no DOE guarantee, BB to be re-painted) that would go against having a school. How silly will you all feel when the ugliest building in the area ruins the skyline, and you still have to find a school for your kids? What then? Will you all shake your heads and say ‘how could we have known’?

    It is actually quite amusing to see a developer use you people as pawns.

  • Pro-middle school people… move to the suburbs or pony up and send your kids to private school. I don’t need bunch of idiot kids running amok at dumbo at 3pm.

  • Pro-middle school people… move to the suburbs or pony up and send your kids to private school. I don’t need bunch of idiot kids running amok at dumbo at 3pm.

  • @md, well following that logic, let’s do away with PS8, too in favor of private school and then you can sit back in the peace and quiet and watch your property values plummet.

  • @md, well following that logic, let’s do away with PS8, too in favor of private school and then you can sit back in the peace and quiet and watch your property values plummet.

  • md,

    You know it was a BETTER neighborhood when DUMBO was only artists, crack-heads and all. At least with crack-heads, you stand a fighting chance.

    Neighbor,

    Is it ok to let a developer change any law he wants as long as he makes empty promises of a school?

  • md,

    You know it was a BETTER neighborhood when DUMBO was only artists, crack-heads and all. At least with crack-heads, you stand a fighting chance.

    Neighbor,

    Is it ok to let a developer change any law he wants as long as he makes empty promises of a school?

  • “Is it ok to let a developer change any law he wants as long as he makes empty promises of a school?”

    Of course not, but hey, No2Walentas2Trees, at least you’re consistent — that’s another glib and hysterical statement you’ve thrown out once again.

    Two Trees have done a very good job developing Dumbo. Our two local eyesores, The Beacon and J Condo, came from other developers. I believe it was No2Walentas2Trees who wrote earlier that Dumbo’s potential was completely obvious even 30 years ago, and without Walentas we would all be sitting here exactly as we are now. I do not believe that the Walentas’s are saints, far from it in fact, but they’re shrewd businessmen who seem to understand that preservation can actually make development more profitable. Someone else would have added several glass and steel stories on top of all of the Gair buildings — like they’ve done in Tribeca and Downtown Brooklyn, and torn other smaller buildings down in favor of soaring bland towers.

    I’d like to see a more interesting design for the Dock St. building and I’d love it if it could be a little lower, but the Walentas’s are the only ones among our local developers who I would at least be willing to hear out on a building like Dock St.

  • “Is it ok to let a developer change any law he wants as long as he makes empty promises of a school?”

    Of course not, but hey, No2Walentas2Trees, at least you’re consistent — that’s another glib and hysterical statement you’ve thrown out once again.

    Two Trees have done a very good job developing Dumbo. Our two local eyesores, The Beacon and J Condo, came from other developers. I believe it was No2Walentas2Trees who wrote earlier that Dumbo’s potential was completely obvious even 30 years ago, and without Walentas we would all be sitting here exactly as we are now. I do not believe that the Walentas’s are saints, far from it in fact, but they’re shrewd businessmen who seem to understand that preservation can actually make development more profitable. Someone else would have added several glass and steel stories on top of all of the Gair buildings — like they’ve done in Tribeca and Downtown Brooklyn, and torn other smaller buildings down in favor of soaring bland towers.

    I’d like to see a more interesting design for the Dock St. building and I’d love it if it could be a little lower, but the Walentas’s are the only ones among our local developers who I would at least be willing to hear out on a building like Dock St.

  • An example of how much Two Trees cares about the education of children in DUMBO:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/nyregion/thecity/08disa.html?_r=1&ref=thecity

  • An example of how much Two Trees cares about the education of children in DUMBO:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/nyregion/thecity/08disa.html?_r=1&ref=thecity

  • neighbor-

    Is your name Tom Cruise? You keep using ‘glib’, me thinks hail xenu may be next.

    You are nothing but spokesman for a corporation. You keep pushing talking points for why the skyline should be ugly. You claim that it is not ok for a developer to change local laws, however this is exactly what is going on here. You are being used and you don’t even see it. It is funny to watch. All hail the mighty developer! He is saving us! Give me a break. Believe it or not, two-trees has no respect for law, nor for the area. They are in it for one reason only. Money. You will never get your school through this. No matter how many times you click your heels together, A school is not going to happen. You people are being conned to such a degree that there really is no point in debating this anymore. So,you can keep coming at me with your Tom Cruise metaphors, making statements like ‘glib’ so you think you sound smart, but just like Tom Cruise, you have been fooled into believing a corporation is really looking for your best interests. Very sad.

  • neighbor-

    Is your name Tom Cruise? You keep using ‘glib’, me thinks hail xenu may be next.

    You are nothing but spokesman for a corporation. You keep pushing talking points for why the skyline should be ugly. You claim that it is not ok for a developer to change local laws, however this is exactly what is going on here. You are being used and you don’t even see it. It is funny to watch. All hail the mighty developer! He is saving us! Give me a break. Believe it or not, two-trees has no respect for law, nor for the area. They are in it for one reason only. Money. You will never get your school through this. No matter how many times you click your heels together, A school is not going to happen. You people are being conned to such a degree that there really is no point in debating this anymore. So,you can keep coming at me with your Tom Cruise metaphors, making statements like ‘glib’ so you think you sound smart, but just like Tom Cruise, you have been fooled into believing a corporation is really looking for your best interests. Very sad.

  • Publius,

    Great article. But of course the proponents will not look at the facts of the behavior of this developer. Mighty ‘W’ has promised them a school, so reality is not what they want to hear. They want to live in a fantasy.

  • Publius,

    Great article. But of course the proponents will not look at the facts of the behavior of this developer. Mighty ‘W’ has promised them a school, so reality is not what they want to hear. They want to live in a fantasy.

  • Like I wrote before, Two Trees are savvy businessmen, but they’re terrible at PR. Also, as I wrote above, there is nothing saintly about them. I heard about the League school fracas a while ago and agree that the whole thing has been handled terribly.

    No2Walentas2Trees, enough with the petty attacks — just make your case. I don’t consider the Walentas’s my saviors, but I do give them credit where it’s due — they’ve done a very good job developing and preserving our beautiful Gair buildings. And I’m not an advocate for the school simply because it *might* one day directly benefit my child. You can’t simply write off the people who are willing to give this project a chance as shills, stupid or merely uninformed. A thriving public school is always a good thing and I think there should be more room to negotiate on both sides here to see if Dock St. can be a win/win for everyone.

  • Like I wrote before, Two Trees are savvy businessmen, but they’re terrible at PR. Also, as I wrote above, there is nothing saintly about them. I heard about the League school fracas a while ago and agree that the whole thing has been handled terribly.

    No2Walentas2Trees, enough with the petty attacks — just make your case. I don’t consider the Walentas’s my saviors, but I do give them credit where it’s due — they’ve done a very good job developing and preserving our beautiful Gair buildings. And I’m not an advocate for the school simply because it *might* one day directly benefit my child. You can’t simply write off the people who are willing to give this project a chance as shills, stupid or merely uninformed. A thriving public school is always a good thing and I think there should be more room to negotiate on both sides here to see if Dock St. can be a win/win for everyone.

  • When they build this school, is there any guarentee that my precious junior won’t be mixed with the neighboring project kids?

  • When they build this school, is there any guarentee that my precious junior won’t be mixed with the neighboring project kids?

  • Hey, dumbo parents… whats wrong the public schools that the Farragut children go to? You don’t want your kids getting some “culture”?

  • Hey, dumbo parents… whats wrong the public schools that the Farragut children go to? You don’t want your kids getting some “culture”?

  • Some kids from Farragut will attend the Dock St. school, assuming it ever gets built. The small school on Front and Hudson is filled to capacity and it’s outside of the PS8 school district.

  • Some kids from Farragut will attend the Dock St. school, assuming it ever gets built. The small school on Front and Hudson is filled to capacity and it’s outside of the PS8 school district.

  • Dear “Neighbor” — did you really say that Two Trees is terrible at PR? That is truly an astounding misstatement. Two Trees is a MASTER of PR…that’s why you (presumably a private citizen not beholden to Two Trees) are defending a corporation’s quest to change zoning laws in an historic neighborhood so that they can build a pedestrian rental tower under and against the single most important landmark in BK. Two Trees has a shill piece in the Post on a weekly basis, they basically own the Brooklyn Eagle by way of subsidized rents and they have various City officials in their pocket as a consequence of political “donations.” This all serves to effectively gloss over the fact that they ultimately care only about separating people from their money — plain and simple. The fact is that they are always doing something like kicking out an established school for children with special needs (which is offering to pay market rent, mind you), or flaunting height restrictions on Atlantic Ave., or utilizing truly shoddy construction (ask them about their bamboo floors, misleading floor plans, leaking showers, horrific cabinetry, etc), or maneuvering behind the scenes to ensure that Dock St. was conspicuously omitted from the landmark district. This is the dark underside of Two Trees that is hidden behind the slick, perpetual PR campaign. Just as Two Trees’ actions on Atlantic Ave. were a middle finger to those local residents who dared to stand in their way, the Dock St. monstrosity will be a HUGE middle finger whose vulgarity and banality will mar the Brooklyn Bridge for generations. But go ahead, Neighbor, rally behind them, after all they promised you a vanilla box where the DOE can build out, what, 12-15 classrooms?

  • Dear “Neighbor” — did you really say that Two Trees is terrible at PR? That is truly an astounding misstatement. Two Trees is a MASTER of PR…that’s why you (presumably a private citizen not beholden to Two Trees) are defending a corporation’s quest to change zoning laws in an historic neighborhood so that they can build a pedestrian rental tower under and against the single most important landmark in BK. Two Trees has a shill piece in the Post on a weekly basis, they basically own the Brooklyn Eagle by way of subsidized rents and they have various City officials in their pocket as a consequence of political “donations.” This all serves to effectively gloss over the fact that they ultimately care only about separating people from their money — plain and simple. The fact is that they are always doing something like kicking out an established school for children with special needs (which is offering to pay market rent, mind you), or flaunting height restrictions on Atlantic Ave., or utilizing truly shoddy construction (ask them about their bamboo floors, misleading floor plans, leaking showers, horrific cabinetry, etc), or maneuvering behind the scenes to ensure that Dock St. was conspicuously omitted from the landmark district. This is the dark underside of Two Trees that is hidden behind the slick, perpetual PR campaign. Just as Two Trees’ actions on Atlantic Ave. were a middle finger to those local residents who dared to stand in their way, the Dock St. monstrosity will be a HUGE middle finger whose vulgarity and banality will mar the Brooklyn Bridge for generations. But go ahead, Neighbor, rally behind them, after all they promised you a vanilla box where the DOE can build out, what, 12-15 classrooms?

  • Two Trees are HORRIBLE at PR. Clueless. Who else would give a wonderful organization like the League school the boot, especially not while they’re trying to push their next blockbuster building through on the back of a public middle school?

    If Two Trees were actually skilled at PR then they wouldn’t be getting kicked in the nuts by The New York Times more often than not when their name comes up in the paper. The local pro-Dock St. articles have been pretty lame and content thin. They haven’t influenced me at all. Maybe they’ve successfully made some waves with our local bureaucrats? I don’t know.

    As far as developers go I do give Two Trees credit where Dumbo is concerned. I have been connected to this neighborhood for many years and I love it dearly. Had Guttman bought the Gair buildings, I wonder how many might have mysteriously burned down 10-15 years ago. I’m thankful that Dumbo was not developed in the manner of Williamsburg or Tribeca. Much of the exterior charm and integrity of our neighborhood has been preserved — with the exception of a few new buildings and some heartbreaking tear downs. Two Trees’s bamboo floors, etc. are unfortunate but they are not relevant to the neighborhood as a whole — their building’s exterior appearances are, however.

    I don’t want to see the Dock St. building go up higher than the bridge. And I don’t think the current plan has a chance. (And yes, I do give Two Trees credit again for not pushing some similarly dodgy things through years before this neighborhood was protected.) I think there is still room to maneuver here. Two Trees threw the idea of the school out perhaps naively thinking that our local PS8 parents would muscle it through unchanged. Not a chance. Now they’re stuck. They can’t simply delete the school line item from the plan, not without taking a huge, big bad corporate developer PR punch in the face. I think more local residents would be wise to push for the school in a revised structure rather than taking such a (in some cases literal) black and white approach.

    Two Trees are going to have to keep rethinking this project until they’ve got something appropriate. It will be better for the neighborhood if a school remains attached to whatever form this building ultimately takes. If we’re going to tear down St. Ann’s Warehouse and build something new, then it’s better for all of us if it can have some greater purpose than merely adding a few hundred more expensive bedrooms to our community.

    I can afford to send my kid to private school pretty comfortably, but I believe in public school. We’re not doing our community any favors if we
    shield our kids in $30,000 a year private institutions and regard our very good local public school system as a place that “the project kids” — the ones with “flava”, as has been written on this site — go to. Those of you who have written such comments and who keep pushing a race and class based campaign against this school have seriously questionable character.

  • Two Trees are HORRIBLE at PR. Clueless. Who else would give a wonderful organization like the League school the boot, especially not while they’re trying to push their next blockbuster building through on the back of a public middle school?

    If Two Trees were actually skilled at PR then they wouldn’t be getting kicked in the nuts by The New York Times more often than not when their name comes up in the paper. The local pro-Dock St. articles have been pretty lame and content thin. They haven’t influenced me at all. Maybe they’ve successfully made some waves with our local bureaucrats? I don’t know.

    As far as developers go I do give Two Trees credit where Dumbo is concerned. I have been connected to this neighborhood for many years and I love it dearly. Had Guttman bought the Gair buildings, I wonder how many might have mysteriously burned down 10-15 years ago. I’m thankful that Dumbo was not developed in the manner of Williamsburg or Tribeca. Much of the exterior charm and integrity of our neighborhood has been preserved — with the exception of a few new buildings and some heartbreaking tear downs. Two Trees’s bamboo floors, etc. are unfortunate but they are not relevant to the neighborhood as a whole — their building’s exterior appearances are, however.

    I don’t want to see the Dock St. building go up higher than the bridge. And I don’t think the current plan has a chance. (And yes, I do give Two Trees credit again for not pushing some similarly dodgy things through years before this neighborhood was protected.) I think there is still room to maneuver here. Two Trees threw the idea of the school out perhaps naively thinking that our local PS8 parents would muscle it through unchanged. Not a chance. Now they’re stuck. They can’t simply delete the school line item from the plan, not without taking a huge, big bad corporate developer PR punch in the face. I think more local residents would be wise to push for the school in a revised structure rather than taking such a (in some cases literal) black and white approach.

    Two Trees are going to have to keep rethinking this project until they’ve got something appropriate. It will be better for the neighborhood if a school remains attached to whatever form this building ultimately takes. If we’re going to tear down St. Ann’s Warehouse and build something new, then it’s better for all of us if it can have some greater purpose than merely adding a few hundred more expensive bedrooms to our community.

    I can afford to send my kid to private school pretty comfortably, but I believe in public school. We’re not doing our community any favors if we
    shield our kids in $30,000 a year private institutions and regard our very good local public school system as a place that “the project kids” — the ones with “flava”, as has been written on this site — go to. Those of you who have written such comments and who keep pushing a race and class based campaign against this school have seriously questionable character.

  • did anyone see the NYT article about the walentas clan closing the autistic school in dumbo on washington street so they can bring in higher rents while at the same time bribing the dock street project officials with the new public middle school. just awful. these aholes just follow the money. i put up a link to the article here yesterday but the moderator took it down for some reaoson. go check it out. to me, this should be the linchpin in the argument against the middle school debacle.

  • did anyone see the NYT article about the walentas clan closing the autistic school in dumbo on washington street so they can bring in higher rents while at the same time bribing the dock street project officials with the new public middle school. just awful. these aholes just follow the money. i put up a link to the article here yesterday but the moderator took it down for some reaoson. go check it out. to me, this should be the linchpin in the argument against the middle school debacle.

  • Thanks assman for the comments. To clarify, we didn’t take down your link yesterday. There are automatic filters that prevented your comment from being posted (probably a key word you inserted somewhere). The NY Times article is also referenced in today’s post:
    http://dumbonyc.com/2009/02/10/more-jabs-at-dock-st-opposition-by-media/

  • Thanks assman for the comments. To clarify, we didn’t take down your link yesterday. There are automatic filters that prevented your comment from being posted (probably a key word you inserted somewhere). The NY Times article is also referenced in today’s post:
    http://dumbonyc.com/2009/02/10/more-jabs-at-dock-st-opposition-by-media/

  • Neighbor — I guess that NY Post editorial is an example of Two Trees being horrible at PR, huh? The reason why Two trees will do as they please (including giving the boot to a school for children with special needs) is because they are unbelievably arrogant and truly believe that by buying off the Post, the Brooklyn papers, and certain strategic elected officials they will ultimately get their way. My prior references to the misrepresentations and shoddiness which mar their prior projects is merely to underscore that the people in whom you would vest so much trust to “do the right thing” by the Brooklyn Bridge (or DUMBO for that matter) are truly unworthy of such trust. Its amazing how people can be blinded by a promise to deliver an empty vanilla box so that a small school may or may not ever be built there by the DOE. We are all in favor of better and less crowded public schools…but the Brooklyn Bridge does not need to be sacrificed just to take a miniscule step in that direction.

  • Neighbor — I guess that NY Post editorial is an example of Two Trees being horrible at PR, huh? The reason why Two trees will do as they please (including giving the boot to a school for children with special needs) is because they are unbelievably arrogant and truly believe that by buying off the Post, the Brooklyn papers, and certain strategic elected officials they will ultimately get their way. My prior references to the misrepresentations and shoddiness which mar their prior projects is merely to underscore that the people in whom you would vest so much trust to “do the right thing” by the Brooklyn Bridge (or DUMBO for that matter) are truly unworthy of such trust. Its amazing how people can be blinded by a promise to deliver an empty vanilla box so that a small school may or may not ever be built there by the DOE. We are all in favor of better and less crowded public schools…but the Brooklyn Bridge does not need to be sacrificed just to take a miniscule step in that direction.

  • I got your reference regarding the — your? — bamboo floors and crappy kitchen cabinets, but it’s hardly a comparison between other developers who have intentionally burned similar buildings down or those who work with questionable architects who blatantly break code to get more bang for the developer’s buck by calling large swaths of the building “storage”. The latter crime is the just one of the reasons why the Guttman building on the corner of Bridge and Water is rotting away half finished with a construction trolley hanging dangerously (for nearly more than a year now) many stories above street level.

    Fight the building if that’s what you think is best. I admire your tenacity. But be savyy about it and realistic. If we don’t get Dock St. do you think that there won’t be another proposal in it’s place? There’s a way to deal with this proposed development with much more thought, complexity and guile than I see from most of the opposition.

  • I got your reference regarding the — your? — bamboo floors and crappy kitchen cabinets, but it’s hardly a comparison between other developers who have intentionally burned similar buildings down or those who work with questionable architects who blatantly break code to get more bang for the developer’s buck by calling large swaths of the building “storage”. The latter crime is the just one of the reasons why the Guttman building on the corner of Bridge and Water is rotting away half finished with a construction trolley hanging dangerously (for nearly more than a year now) many stories above street level.

    Fight the building if that’s what you think is best. I admire your tenacity. But be savyy about it and realistic. If we don’t get Dock St. do you think that there won’t be another proposal in it’s place? There’s a way to deal with this proposed development with much more thought, complexity and guile than I see from most of the opposition.

  • So Two Trees gets its variance because Guttman is evil incarnate? I’m having difficulty following the logic. And I guess you’re choosing to ignore the issues surrounding the height of the Atlantic Ave building (or the problems at One Main for that matter). Of course there will be another proposal for Dock St. if this one does not pass, and if a variance continues to be sought the proposed development will have to be smaller because of the precedent that has been established by the prior denials. That’s how the process works. If everyone just sat back and took your “realistic” approach Two Trees would have built their original incarnation of Dock St., which was even more monstrous than this one!

  • So Two Trees gets its variance because Guttman is evil incarnate? I’m having difficulty following the logic. And I guess you’re choosing to ignore the issues surrounding the height of the Atlantic Ave building (or the problems at One Main for that matter). Of course there will be another proposal for Dock St. if this one does not pass, and if a variance continues to be sought the proposed development will have to be smaller because of the precedent that has been established by the prior denials. That’s how the process works. If everyone just sat back and took your “realistic” approach Two Trees would have built their original incarnation of Dock St., which was even more monstrous than this one!

  • No. I think that many of you on the side of the opposition have difficulty with reading comprehension. Two Trees does not get a pass simply because they’re the best of the worst. You did not read what I wrote earlier. Try it again and see if you see that I’m am NOT a proponent of the Dock St. building in it’s current incarnation. And my advocation of a more “realistic” approach is NOT REMOTELY about rolling over and caving to an inappropriate building plan in exchange for a school.

    “I don’t want to see the Dock St. building go up higher than the bridge. And I don’t think the current plan has a chance. (And yes, I do give Two Trees credit again for not pushing some similarly dodgy things through years before this neighborhood was protected.) I think there is still room to maneuver here. Two Trees threw the idea of the school out perhaps naively thinking that our local PS8 parents would muscle it through unchanged. Not a chance. Now they’re stuck. They can’t simply delete the school line item from the plan, not without taking a huge, big bad corporate developer PR punch in the face. I think more local residents would be wise to push for the school in a revised structure rather than taking such a (in some cases literal) black and white approach.”

    My feeling is that it’s too late for Two Trees to back out of the school EVEN IF they are forced to cut the height of the overall building — which will happen. There’s no good way out for Two Trees at this point without looking like monsters. And the League school mess will likely only force their hand further in the direction of compromise with Dock St. It would be helpful if the opposition could fight Two Trees more creatively. We’re going to end up with one of their buildings on this site — my feeling is that we should get the most from it. If we can get a height appropriate building AND a school then why not fight for it?

  • No. I think that many of you on the side of the opposition have difficulty with reading comprehension. Two Trees does not get a pass simply because they’re the best of the worst. You did not read what I wrote earlier. Try it again and see if you see that I’m am NOT a proponent of the Dock St. building in it’s current incarnation. And my advocation of a more “realistic” approach is NOT REMOTELY about rolling over and caving to an inappropriate building plan in exchange for a school.

    “I don’t want to see the Dock St. building go up higher than the bridge. And I don’t think the current plan has a chance. (And yes, I do give Two Trees credit again for not pushing some similarly dodgy things through years before this neighborhood was protected.) I think there is still room to maneuver here. Two Trees threw the idea of the school out perhaps naively thinking that our local PS8 parents would muscle it through unchanged. Not a chance. Now they’re stuck. They can’t simply delete the school line item from the plan, not without taking a huge, big bad corporate developer PR punch in the face. I think more local residents would be wise to push for the school in a revised structure rather than taking such a (in some cases literal) black and white approach.”

    My feeling is that it’s too late for Two Trees to back out of the school EVEN IF they are forced to cut the height of the overall building — which will happen. There’s no good way out for Two Trees at this point without looking like monsters. And the League school mess will likely only force their hand further in the direction of compromise with Dock St. It would be helpful if the opposition could fight Two Trees more creatively. We’re going to end up with one of their buildings on this site — my feeling is that we should get the most from it. If we can get a height appropriate building AND a school then why not fight for it?

  • Well, one thing we can agree on is that I hope you are right when you say that the current plan does not have a chance. I really do not see it that way though. The CB has already approved it and the people that we need to now vote against it are the same people who bear great responsibility for the rampant overdevelopment that we have experienced over the last decade. I also do not believe you are being realistic in gaining Two Trees’ capitulation to a seven or eight story building (going up no higher than the bridge in your words) with the school. Further, if Two Trees does not prevail here they can simply remove the school from future proposals and blame grass roots activists for “costing” the community a middle school. I do not see how Two Trees is handcuffed at all. To the contrary, I’m genuinely worried that this inappropriate building (as you acknowledge) will be built as proposed unless there is vigorous opposition.

  • Well, one thing we can agree on is that I hope you are right when you say that the current plan does not have a chance. I really do not see it that way though. The CB has already approved it and the people that we need to now vote against it are the same people who bear great responsibility for the rampant overdevelopment that we have experienced over the last decade. I also do not believe you are being realistic in gaining Two Trees’ capitulation to a seven or eight story building (going up no higher than the bridge in your words) with the school. Further, if Two Trees does not prevail here they can simply remove the school from future proposals and blame grass roots activists for “costing” the community a middle school. I do not see how Two Trees is handcuffed at all. To the contrary, I’m genuinely worried that this inappropriate building (as you acknowledge) will be built as proposed unless there is vigorous opposition.

  • I’ve definitely weighed in enough — too much in the thread — so I apologize for that.

    I have a real love / hate relationship with Two Trees (but I do not have an actual relationship with them — I do not work for them, rent from them, and I do not own an apartment in one of their properties). But I have benefitted from their development of Dumbo far more than I’ve *suffered* for it.

    That said, I do believe that the cynical manner in which they’ve tied the school to their new project, particularly in light of the way the school magically appeared once their earlier plans were rejected, is extremely transparent. Many concerned residents have varying arguments, and varying agendas and unfortunately the combination of interests seems to have weakened the case against the current plan for the Dock St. development. The most hysterical comments — from terrorism to the heath of gestating fetuses — and the class / race baiting language have trivialized the opposition and will only help Two Trees push this project through, or place the blame if the school line item is cut.

    I would ask any of you who agree with my position to make your case over the phone and in writing — aggressively — to David Yassky, Marty Markowitz, Leticia James & Mayor Bloomberg in the coming days.

  • I’ve definitely weighed in enough — too much in the thread — so I apologize for that.

    I have a real love / hate relationship with Two Trees (but I do not have an actual relationship with them — I do not work for them, rent from them, and I do not own an apartment in one of their properties). But I have benefitted from their development of Dumbo far more than I’ve *suffered* for it.

    That said, I do believe that the cynical manner in which they’ve tied the school to their new project, particularly in light of the way the school magically appeared once their earlier plans were rejected, is extremely transparent. Many concerned residents have varying arguments, and varying agendas and unfortunately the combination of interests seems to have weakened the case against the current plan for the Dock St. development. The most hysterical comments — from terrorism to the heath of gestating fetuses — and the class / race baiting language have trivialized the opposition and will only help Two Trees push this project through, or place the blame if the school line item is cut.

    I would ask any of you who agree with my position to make your case over the phone and in writing — aggressively — to David Yassky, Marty Markowitz, Leticia James & Mayor Bloomberg in the coming days.

  • what artists? they all moved out of dumbo because two trees double the rent or didn't renew, so he could make the spaces into high end office or condos. what about the school that has to relocate because he didn't renew the lease and is making the building into high end condos?

  • what artists? they all moved out of dumbo because two trees double the rent or didn't renew, so he could make the spaces into high end office or condos. what about the school that has to relocate because he didn't renew the lease and is making the building into high end condos?